When I saw the Muffin Men at The Boardwalk in Sheffield in May 2008, Black and I had agreed it was about time we conducted another interview.

    I last spoke with Black on the phone in August 2008, as he was preparing to leave hospital having been told he had inoperable lung cancer. He said he actually felt okay, but had been told that he wasn’t. It seemed that it was just the chemo he’d been undergoing these past few years for his leukaemia that made him “feel like shit”.

    With my late friend Dave McMann, I helped organise a concert to raise funds for his mounting medical bills, which he was of course happy about. Sadly, he passed away just over a week before the concert took place at the Bridge House II in London’s Canning Town on 9 November 2008.

    This interview was completed before our last telephone conversation. Much of it was used in the ‘Recollections’ part of Black’s posthumous autobiography.

You’ve been battling leukaemia for a few years now?

I have had leukaemia since 2001 and have gone through five months of chemotherapy and this April I started and completed ten weeks of radiation therapy, which was a drag. The therapy wasn’t bad; it was the after effects that weren’t good. I am still reeling from that shit. Three weeks ago the doctors found a pretty big tumour on my right lung that looked like cancer to them. I went into the hospital two weeks ago and had three biopsies done on that tumour. All three tests came back saying that the tumour wasn’t cancerous. The doctors can’t believe it. On the 20th of this month, I am going back into the hospital and having an operation to either remove it or something. I have to say that this has not been a good year so far for me health wise. I hope it gets better from now on.

I’ll drink to that. Do you plan to record the song you wrote late last year while undergoing chemotherapy?

I do plan to record the song and in fact the guy I have been playing with in Italy – his name is Bruno Marini – has got the song now and is coming up with an arrangement for it. The music to the song was written by my old friend Tom Leavey. He was the bass player in the original Geronimo Black band and I think it will be a great song.

Talking about Geronimo Black, what are your memories of your first encounter with Denny Walley?

Denny is one of my all-time greatest friends. He was Tom Leavey’s brother-in-law. The boys were married to a couple of sisters from Coney Island. I still think that Geronimo Black was a great band and always will. I am very proud of the music we played and of the musicians that played it.

    The Zappanale this year should be very good with Denny being there. By the way, he just called me yesterday and wished me good tidings with my operation.

You’ve just released a CD called Freedom Jazz Dance on the Italian Azzurra Music label with Bruno – how did that come about?

Bruno called me up last year and asked me to come to Verona, Italy and go into the studio and record this CD. I think that the CD came out very interesting since I have never done anything like it before. I really enjoyed playing with all the players that participated on the recording. Valentina Black – no relation – is a wonderful and absolutely beautiful woman and singer. Bruno arranged all the horn parts, which sound great and he also played flute and Hammond organ.

Tell me about the recording of Strange News From Mars.

Strange News From Mars is a very interesting recording by Jon Larsen, who is a very talented guitarist and songwriter. I went to Oslo, Norway and went into the studio the second morning and did my talking parts and a little percussion on a few tracks. He then took the tracks to Los Angeles and got Arthur Barrow, Tommy Mars and Bruce Fowler to play on most of the songs. I really like the sound of the recording, as it sounds very Zappa-like.

    I have since then gone back to Oslo and done another recording with Jon and the CD is called The Jimmy Carl Black Story. It is due out anytime. I basically went into the studio one night and told my life story. It took me about one and a half hours to do it. He then used some blues players from Oslo and also some of the guys from the Strange News CD for the background music.

Of course, you played with Tommy Mars in Sardinia in 1995 – how did that happen?

Well, I got a call from Sandro Oliva saying that this promoter was interested in doing a night of Zappa music and would me and Ener Bladezipper be interested in playing with Sandro and Tommy Mars. I had met Tommy on a number of occasions through Denny Walley and Frank. I asked Ener, who was living in Amsterdam, if he wanted to do it and he said okay. The money was great so we did it.

    As it turned out we had only two hours to rehearse and one of the songs we pulled off was Brown Shoes Don’t Make It, the Tinsel Town Rebellion version because Tommy knew that way. All in all, it was a great concert and a great time in Sardinia.

How did your collaboration with Ella Guru – on The First Album, a really nice, dreamy record – come about?

Those guys are big fans of The Muffin Men and always came to our gigs in Liverpool. I met singer/guitarist John Yates at The Cavern when we played there and he asked me if I would be willing to sing on two tracks of their new CD. I said sure and I did. It is a very nice CD, although I wasn’t expecting that type of recordings with the name Ella Guru. I thought that they played more like Captain Beefheart, but that wasn’t the case.

Tell me about the Black Brown Stone Trio.

When I played that festival with Dr. Chadbourne in France in 2006, I met and played with Steven De Bruyn who is a harp player from Belgium. He later asked me if I was interested in coming to Brussels and recording a CD with him and a guy named Jos Steen in the Belgium National Radio studio. I said sure, so I went and recorded with them. The pay was good and they paid all my expenses from Germany. It is a very interesting recording that fans would enjoy.

As a Grandmother, how do you feel about the current line-up[i]?

You mean an original Grandmother. I really don’t think about it too much. I think that it was wrong to fire Bunk the way that happened as he was also there from the beginning. I never have heard any music from this particular line-up so I can’t say. I am sure that they play good, as Napi, Don and Roy are strong players. I don’t know the other two guys.

What were the circumstances of Bunk's dismissal?

I really don’t know since I was in Europe and they were in California. What Bunk told me was, he asked Roy something like “What about loyalty?” and Roy said and I quote Bunk, “Then was then and now is now.” Unquote. In my opinion, that is pretty cold, especially saying that to one of the founding members of The Grandmothers. Roy certainly is not a founding member. The founding members of the Grandmothers are: Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Jimmy Carl Black.

    Of course, this is all hearsay to me since I wasn’t there. I will say that I am very happy to be playing with The Muffin Men. I get my fill of Zappa music with them and they also do some of my songs. But then again, so did the Grannies.

What's your take on the We're Only In It For The Money remix? Why did Frank say the original drum and bass tracks were unusable and then was able to remaster and reissue it later?

I don’t know why Frank said that the drum and bass tracks were ruined. He didn’t remaster and reissue the correct version of the album. That was Rykodisc after they bought the catalogue from the ZFT. That is the version that the fans wanted and finally got. Unfortunately, it was not the case on Cruising With Ruben And The Jets. I wished it were.

    Those two guys that replaced the tracks on those albums got $10,000 each for doing that. We, being the Mothers Of Invention, on the other hand, got paid $300 dollars for doing both albums in 1967 while we were living in New York.

Dr Chadbourne mentioned a story that We're Only In It For The Money didn't actually feature the Mothers, but a bunch of session musicians. What was that all about?

That wasn’t a story that he said. That was from an e-mail he got from Gail about us trying to release Mom And Dad and Willie The Pimp on the CD, Hearing Is Believing. She told the guy from Boxholder Records that I wasn’t even on Mom And Dad and in fact wasn’t even on the We're Only In It For The Money album. The good Doctor then asked her if Frank had hired Rich Little (a famous comedian, who does impressions) to do “Hi, boys and girls - I’m Jimmy Carl Black and I’m the Indian of the group”. Well, that stopped her in her tracks.

    It is ironic that she could say something like that when she wasn’t even allowed to come down to the studio. I was there almost at every one of the sessions that happened at Mayfair Studios[ii].

Have you heard the MOFO CD set? Any surprises for you?

I have heard the CD as Roddie gave it to me as a birthday present on my 69th birthday. I have to say that I really enjoyed the whole CD. It is great to hear all the tracks in various forms and then the whole thing together.

How was Japan?

Japan was a wonderful trip for me, although I wasn’t feeling very well. I had just finished ten weeks of radiation treatments about three weeks before I left for Japan. Actually, that was way too soon for me to go. Man, that shit really knocked the piss out of me. Here it is in August and I am still not completely recovered from that shit. Anyway, we were in Tokyo for eight days and played three gigs.

    The first gig was a Captain Beefheart night and so we played mostly Beefheart songs. The second gig was a Zappa night, so we played mostly Zappa songs - and, by the way, we made sure that JASRAC the equivalent to the GEMA (collecting society for collective rights management) in Japan paid for the songs. The fourth gig was in Nagoya and we got an excellent recording of that show which is now out on CD. I really enjoyed the food over there and was surprised to find so many Mothers Of Invention fans at every show. It really made me feel good to know that I am still loved for the music that I was a part of.

    The tour was a short one, which I was grateful for since the way I was feeling and my best friend, Eugene Chadbourne, was patient with me and did take pretty damn good care of me. I would like to go back sometime but, as you know, I don’t know how much more time I have with all the shit medically going on with me. I hope a few years. When I pass on, maybe people will start buying my music and that way help my sweet little wife through hard times. Greg Russo is doing his part, thank God.

Yes, Greg’s doing a marvellous job remastering and issuing some of your older material. What’s next from Crossfire Publications?

While I was in Italy, this last time before I went into the hospital, I was in the studio and did my vocal parts to Stolen Cadillac that will feature Candy Zappa also singing the other part of the song. That is one of the new songs on the next CD which, I think, is going to be called If We Were Only Living In California. You can confirm that with Greg. It sounds to me like a great CD.

    You know that I really let him have a free reign on what he puts on these CD. He always sends me the product for approval first but I really trust him and really enjoy working with him. He is a very dear friend of mine.

So, what of the For Mother’s Sake book?!

I am working slowly now on the book as I only have two chapters left to do. I am going to finish it very soon as I don’t know what will happen to me health wise in the near future.

How do you come up with the songs you cover in the Jack & Jim Show – DMX’s One More Road To Cross, for example?

Jack usually just starts playing a new song and I pick up on it within a couple of bars and we have a new song in the set. We will then try to play it on every gig of that particular tour until it is the way he likes it. We have a new CD out called Think 69 from our very successful tour of the USA last year that has a new song called Mr. Spooky. That song came from my little granddaughter, Lisa Maria, here in Germany. She’s five years old and that is what she calls me, Mr. Spooky. It is a very funny song and the people love it.

Will we see you at “that quote-unquote festival slash event slash what the fuck”[iii] in Bad Doberan again?

Not this year, but the festival wants me to play possibly next year since it is the 20th anniversary of the festival and I would love to do that. I really would like to do it with the Jack And Jim Show.

What are your feelings about the Zappa Family Trust’s recent ‘aggressive action’ against tribute bands?

Zappa Plays Zappa says that Dweezil is the real thing but in reality Frank is the real thing and everything else is tribute bands, period.

Yes, I have to admit it’s all getting a bit silly: the ZFT bangs on about protecting ‘the intent of the composer’ on the one hand, then on the other licenses Frank’s unreleased music to producers and artists; I can’t believe he ever intended to wind up on Gene Simmons’ Asshole.

    How’s Bunk these days – and what’s he up to?

The last time I talked to him, which was about a month ago, he was doing very good. He’s still teaching and he also has beaten prostate cancer and doing well. I would really love to play with him again, probably for the last time in this life, one more time. I wish it could be at the Zappanale 20. He would fit in perfectly with the Jack And Jim Show band since he has played with Chadbourne before.

A video clip by John Cline of you performing with Frank in Albuquerque in October 1980 has just appeared online – can you tell me a little about that?

John Cline is a good friend of mine from Albuquerque. I was living up there at the time I went to California and Frank’s studio and recorded Harder Than Your Husband.

    When they did the tour, one of the first gigs was in Albuquerque at the university. Frank asked me if I would sing the song live and, of course, I said I would. John then asked Frank for permission to videotape the song and to my surprise, Frank gave him permission. It really is a good video. I had never seen it until it appeared on YouTube.

Did your sons ever release their planned Geronimo Black CD?

Not yet, but I hope so soon. It is sort of out on my label, Inkanish Records, but not as an official release since I have no money to release it properly. They are going back into the studio soon and doing another CD that I hope will be released since Geronimo is writing a lot of new songs now. They are playing a lot at the moment. They play almost every weekend in El Paso.

How did you select the songs you covered on How Blue Can You Get?

We just got together before the recording started and ask each other what songs each wanted to do and we went in and recorded them. We didn’t want to do any original songs on this CD. Just songs we liked.

I understand you’re about to be interviewed for a new documentary on FZ & Mothers Of Invention in the 60s, being produced by Chrome Dreams[iv]?

Yeah, the boys are coming this afternoon to my house where we will do the interview. I didn’t know it was being produced by Chrome Dreams. I thought it was Prism Films, although they are probably working together. It should be interesting since it looks like I am the only original Mother to be interviewed.

Do you know what prompted Walter Becker's lobbying of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame to get you included as a founding member of the Mothers?

I have no idea why except that I am very grateful to him. I am a big fan of Steely Dan. I wished all of the Mothers of Invention could and should have been inducted at the time Frank was inducted. I am sure that Gail was very happy that we weren’t and, in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if she had something to do with it.

Any thoughts on the passing of the former Senator from North Carolina, Jesse Helms?

One less member of the famed KKK gone. What else is there to say about that elixir?

Finally, can we talk a little bit more about your private life – how did you meet Moni?

I was playing a gig in Traunstein, Germany, with The Farrell/Black Blues Band and she was in the front row just staring at me. At the time, I didn’t know just how big of a fan of the Mothers she was. She had been looking at my picture on all those album covers – she has all the original albums – for the last twenty-five years. She was absolutely beautiful and I couldn’t believe such a beautiful woman would be interested in an old fart like me – I was fifty-eight, then.

    I tried to get to know her after the concert but she didn’t speak any English at that time and, of course, I didn’t speak any German. So that was the beginning of our relationship. I have to say that eleven months later that year, I married that girl and am the happiest I have ever been in all my life - still. She takes very good care of me and she still loves Zappa music.

    She loves going to the Zappanale and hopefully we will go next year. That would be a finale of my career as a guy that was fortunate enough to play in the best band in the world from the 1960s. I really believed that and still do.

Interview conducted on Thursday 7th August 2008. The complete interview can be found in my book Frank Talk: The Inside Stories Of Zappa's Other People (Wymer UK, 2017). Photo of Jimmy courtesy of Roddie Gilliard.

 

[i] After a lengthy tour of North America in 2000 - with Preston and Oliva both vying to be the band's musical director - The Grandmothers split in two: Preston initially formed a short-lived US version featuring Billy Mundi, before settling on a line-up that included Gardner, Estrada and Napoleon Murphy Brock; Black attempted to form an 'EU Grandmothers' with the remaining band members plus Zappa's sister Candy Zappa. In 2002, both bands planned to tour Europe which, according to Oliva, caused "a lot of confusion with promoters and venues that were already dealing with our tour." So the EU version called it a day. The Grandmothers West (with Preston, Gardner, Brock, Estrada and special guest Bob Harris) headlined Zappanale 13. Black did briefly guest with them, but was incensed at being sidelined by Preston, with whom he never worked again.

[ii] At Zappa.com, Gail Zappa wrote the following note about 'the Mothers today', listed on the original sleeve of the We’re Only In It For The Money album in 1968: "This is different than the actual players on this record - not unlike all the other people pictured on the album art who did not perform hereon. The actual players are Frank Zappa, Ian Underwood, Roy Estrada, Billy Mundi. Fuck off. Word."

[iii] Zappanale, as described to Der Spiegel by Gail Zappa.

[iv] The DVD Frank Zappa And The Mothers Of Invention In The 1960s was issued by Chrome Dreams in 2008 and included the last filmed interview with Black. It also included new interviews with fellow Mothers Don Preston, Bunk Gardner and Art Tripp.